Hi everyone I've had this idea and wanted everyone knowledgeable/interested to come up with comments. It relates to the way 2 people interact in stellar layer. Say we have the two persons, who want to trade some goods, a and b. Each has a bank account/master/visa card in his own bank, A and B. Once in a while they have trade relations, a buys services from b, b buys products from a. Questions: Is there a way to link person a bank account with a stellar account (say via stargazer (or any other wallet))? Respectively person b has also to link somehow his bank account to his wallet. ? Once a trade operation occurred, there has to happen some transaction between a and b banks accounts? What are the charges for a bank for such operations? Normally it's just a bank transfer. What the charges must be? If there was a trade operation with a profit margin, the State has to charge a tax? Where the tax will be deducted and who is in charge to send the tax amount to the state treasury? Most obviously it's the bank who should do it. Can the Stellar replace the bank and just send the info to the Government revenue authority, that the seller's bank account owes an amount of money to the State and it will accumulate in the bank, before it literally goes to the state Budget. In other words, stellar will be responsible for recording debts. Theoretically stellar is a good tool for tracking the money mass of the national economy. The money will stop traveling physically, they just can stay in the banks. And the only time the money will have to leave the bank office is when they will be delivered to the national treasury or national bank. Is stellar robust enough to hold up the information of 4500 trader's transactions every day? 4.5 million traders transactions every day, 9 billion traders transactions?

And again thank you ? Scotty I've probably haven't read enough documentation on stellar... My point here was the following - let's admit the banks (A and B ), instead of releasing a card for an account for the respective persons, will tell them that they need to install Stargazer/my_wallet into their androids in order to have access to the moneys of their accounts. For this we need acceptance and participation of banks in this exercise, so that they accept stellar layer for giving in the operations between their a and b clients. In theory. In practice, the A and B banks having access to stellar can always check who has done what transactions meantime they were out of office ? . Thus stellar will act as a public record book of all transactions that took place in the meantime. Question: what does it make the banks more willing to use stellar instead of what they have already got in terms of networks and staff? Let's say a transaction and/or many transactions occurred during the day between multiple clients of A and B banks. At the end of the day, or balance hour, the banks have to check where did the money flowed, so they look into the stellar? Again, what benefits does it have for the banks to use stellar instead, for local operations, since they are charging lots of percents from each tx, this is their core business, does stellar affect it? I'd say yes, because it is gonna cut their margins heavily. I wish i could have time to learn stellar more... It's clear with this point. The tax deductions appear in the system because of the settings in the trading clients a and b are using (in their smartphones the apps can be set such that if a tx occurred, the app will automatically calculate the tax which has to leave to state treasury. This question is answered. I understand it is technically possible. Depending on the configuration of flows there can be several stellar layers: one being the core stellar, other stellar instance can be run to collect taxes, other for other things, etc

Business case evaluation

lcipciriuc

Hi everyone

I've had this idea and wanted everyone knowledgeable/interested to come up with comments. It relates to the way 2 people interact in stellar layer.

Say we have the two persons, who want to trade some goods, a and b. Each has a bank account/master/visa card in his own bank, A and B. Once in a while they have trade relations, a buys services from b, b buys products from a.

Questions:

Is there a way to link person a bank account with a stellar account (say via stargazer (or any other wallet))? Respectively person b has also to link somehow his bank account to his wallet. ?
Once a trade operation occurred, there has to happen some transaction between a and b banks accounts? What are the charges for a bank for such operations? Normally it's just a bank transfer. What the charges must be?
If there was a trade operation with a profit margin, the State has to charge a tax? Where the tax will be deducted and who is in charge to send the tax amount to the state treasury? Most obviously it's the bank who should do it. Can the Stellar replace the bank and just send the info to the Government revenue authority, that the seller's bank account owes an amount of money to the State and it will accumulate in the bank, before it literally goes to the state Budget. In other words, stellar will be responsible for recording debts. Theoretically stellar is a good tool for tracking the money mass of the national economy. The money will stop traveling physically, they just can stay in the banks. And the only time the money will have to leave the bank office is when they will be delivered to the national treasury or national bank.
Is stellar robust enough to hold up the information of 4500 trader's transactions every day? 4.5 million traders transactions every day, 9 billion traders transactions?

sacarlson

1.) I don't think that will work. As far as I know you must have a FUNDED account on stellar.org net to setup trades on the internal stellar.org network trading system

The network is also not presently setup to do automated bank transactions direct from fiat banks at this time. At this time that still takes some transaction time like up to 24 hours.

On the other hand a prefunded trade that is already setup on one side could in some way be instantly hit when the bank transaction is finally performed on your side B.

so maybe half your idea will work?

2.) Transaction fees to move assets from fiat bank to stellar.org and from stellar.org to fiat bank is determined by the anchor. each will be different some maybe free. so look at the docs of the anchor to determine this like for funtracker.site you will see fee's for each operation stated here: https://www.funtracker.site/wiki/doku.php#funtrackersite_bank_fee_s_for_services that you can note deposits are free, withdraw from stellar.org net to fiat thailand banks is 0.05%. details: Fee for a Withdraws: through the Funtracker.site Bank gateway with direct transfer to any bank in Thailand (THB only) or paypal.com (THB or USD) or BTC bitcoin (BTC only) transfer: 0.5% of the transferred amount, fee is not to exceed 200 THB (~$6USD) value max per transaction. In most cases you will be asked to send the issued asset amount of withdraw to stellar accountID:

3.) As far as tax, taxes are handled on the users side at least here in USA NOT by brokers or banks. The Only time the BROKER (not the bank) holds back tax is when the account is registered as an IRA tax deferred account. This might be different in other countries I'm not sure. My brokers at the end of each year provide me the data needed to submit my tax report to federal and state tax submitions. Maybe some day our trading apps or other app will provide this service or feature. It would not really be hard to create an app that all you would have to provide is your publicId. from that it could search all trades made within the calender year and determine profits and losses and create data output that is compatible with tax programs that handle these things.

4.) As far as how stellar.org transactions scale. Stellar.org network has been measured at handling about 1000 transactions per second that is equal to 86,400,000 transactions per day. That number should provide you some idea of how much we can handle. I assume you can do the math your self on other windows of time with different numbers of people involved. Also in the event that is not enuff there is no reason we can't have 2 stellar.org nets or X stellar.org nets that are bridged together as almost one. In this manner there is no limits to number of transactions per second.

lcipciriuc

And again thank you ? Scotty

I've probably haven't read enough documentation on stellar...

My point here was the following - let's admit the banks (A and B ), instead of releasing a card for an account for the respective persons, will tell them that they need to install Stargazer/my_wallet into their androids in order to have access to the moneys of their accounts. For this we need acceptance and participation of banks in this exercise, so that they accept stellar layer for giving in the operations between their a and b clients. In theory. In practice, the A and B banks having access to stellar can always check who has done what transactions meantime they were out of office ? . Thus stellar will act as a public record book of all transactions that took place in the meantime. Question: what does it make the banks more willing to use stellar instead of what they have already got in terms of networks and staff?
Let's say a transaction and/or many transactions occurred during the day between multiple clients of A and B banks. At the end of the day, or balance hour, the banks have to check where did the money flowed, so they look into the stellar? Again, what benefits does it have for the banks to use stellar instead, for local operations, since they are charging lots of percents from each tx, this is their core business, does stellar affect it? I'd say yes, because it is gonna cut their margins heavily. I wish i could have time to learn stellar more...
It's clear with this point. The tax deductions appear in the system because of the settings in the trading clients a and b are using (in their smartphones the apps can be set such that if a tx occurred, the app will automatically calculate the tax which has to leave to state treasury.
This question is answered. I understand it is technically possible. Depending on the configuration of flows there can be several stellar layers: one being the core stellar, other stellar instance can be run to collect taxes, other for other things, etc

sacarlson

Question 1: what does it make the banks more willing to use stellar instead of what they have already got in terms of networks and staff?
The banks only distribute tokens of there funds that are passed peer to peer without any need for the bank to even know what path the token funds go in there life time. This reduces hardware needs and staff needs on the side of a bank that saves them money.

Question 2: the banks have to check where did the money flowed, so they look into the stellar?
No the bank doesn't monitor nor should it care where it's tokens have gone in the life time of a token, The bank is only involve when some one wants to remove there tokens from the stellar.org network. They don't need to know that the token may have passed between 100's or even 1000's of peoples hands before it again hits there gateway to be converted back into fiat currency on there side. Remind you that those 100's or 1000's of transactions of these bank tokens cost the people almost nothing to transact on stellar.org network peer to peer side, no cost to or from the bank.

question 3: what are the benifits to a bank using stellar?
The saving for a bank using stellar.org can be enormous. I should assume you have no idea of the cost of security required behind a standard banks centralized accounting ledger system that need to have boxes under human guard at multiple redundant locations with each as vulnerable as the other if security is breached at any single point. With stellar this expensive centralized security is replaced by public encrypted chained ledgers that is almost free. It not only reduces the cost to the bank if just replacing there own banks ledgers, but also provides direct links to transact with completely different financial institutions with out need of any additional trust setup between them to start.